The Nuremberg Interviews (73 page)

“The professors told me that the SD was in charge of controlling all information pertaining to economic and social life and political developments in Germany. By my belonging to the SS and SD, I would be able to avoid all work for the SS, and for the SD all I would have to do was write an article every few weeks.” What sort of article? “About new regulations and civil laws — the results of the heredity health laws — a new set of laws that stated that such illnesses as schizophrenia should be curtailed by having such people sterilized or castrated.”

What do you think about those laws? “I had nothing to do with them except I was charged with conducting nationwide propaganda to determine the reaction of the people to these laws. Opinion was split into two groups.

“The first group had stricken relatives, and the other group was merely interested in the laws. In the first group, some thought it was a good idea — it would relieve them of worry. Others, particularly in the Rhineland, were against it for religious reasons.”
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What was your own opinion? “I had no opinion. I had little interest in it. One day I had the opinion of one group, next day of the other group. I wrote articles that were neither favorable nor unfavorable because they were all objective articles.”

To this day don’t you know what you think of it? “Today I consider it too deep a violation of human rights.” You did not think so then? “At that time I had no opinion.” How about castration and sterilization of political enemies? “That was not the question. It was only to judge public reactions through work in trials.”

We know that political enemies and Jews were castrated? “At that time there were no such cases. It was not debated then.”

You know now. “Yes. In April 1945 I found out about it, in Stockholm, during a conversation.”

Schellenberg made the preceding statement with a smiling smoothness, which might well be considered an attitude of “I don’t expect you to believe that but that’s my answer.” I remarked that it was difficult to believe in view of his intimacy with the goings-on in Himmler’s inner circle. He replied that he was sorry I was of that opinion. I said that from a psychological observation standpoint he didn’t seem sorry. He further said that he was naturally against such measures, that is, castration and sterilization. However, it was said without much concern or affective reaction.

I repeated that it was hard to believe in view of his close association with Himmler and Kaltenbrunner and the rest. He said, “My work was so different it was quite understandable. If you knew my personal feelings about Himmler and Kaltenbrunner, or rather the feelings between us, you would know that I was glad to be through with my own work with them.” What were your feelings about them? “I didn’t trust them and they didn’t trust me, except that Himmler began to feel I was siding with him rather than Kaltenbrunner and especially after my using horoscopic means to convince him.”

He explained about his telling Himmler of his horoscope and predicting certain events. Himmler was inclined to believe this horoscope business because he was “a weak character and superstitious.”
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But people over the whole world heard reports of castrations and sterilizations and similar practices in camps before the end of the war — much before, in fact. “I purposely didn’t listen to news from abroad — if you did listen it would influence your work.” What would your reaction be if you were a psychiatrist and heard such an answer to your question? “It is difficult if the psychiatrist is prejudiced.” What prejudice do you mean? “Well, you are an American, and have been subject to certain propaganda yourself.” That’s true, but can you elucidate? “In my case, though I had an idea of what was going on — I purposely didn’t see it.” I
can believe that more easily. “You have to think of yourself in the place of a German, where hundreds of jealous people, other Germans and foreigners, and foreign news too, were threatening them. That was one of the reasons why anything that would have cost me more work was just — well I just shunted it to one side. I had no more to do with it, no more than I had to.

“I felt at a very early date that many things in the system were bypassing human rights. That is why I tried to do my job in such a way as to get Germany out of it.” What do you mean? “I wanted a quick finish of the war and a reforming of the regime.” When? “From 1940 onward. My first great disappointment was that Germany did not sign a peace with France in 1940 after France fell. What we signed was only an armistice — the Vichy regime.” What do you mean? “A true peace with France should have been signed, and then with the whole West. A peace with the Vichy government.”

What did you do about making a quick finish to the war as you just mentioned? “I tried to get the political secret service into my hands.” German secret service in other lands? “Yes. To get reports so that I could show the government objectively that things couldn’t go on like this.”

The
Einsatzgruppen
— to what office were they responsible? “To Offices III and IV. I had nothing to do with it.”

To what office if any was Colonel Skorzeny accountable? “To Office VI, but I had little to do with him because he occupied an independent position following the Mussolini incident.”
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Did Office VI have anything to do with atrocities? “No. In the early days we started to make contact with the English and American people, and the Vatican too. I tried repeatedly to bring about political talks and conferences, grounds for establishing peaceful relationships.” But always with the idea of furthering Nazi Germany? “It was still my idea in 1941. But not in 1942. It was so hard to do anything with Hitler, I gave up the idea.” But you continued to work for Hitler and the Nazi regime until the end of the war. “Yes. But I conspired. Several people know about it, Swedish and Swiss people.” Nazis? “On the contrary. No.”

In the summer of 1942, Schellenberg attempted to “get Himmler on my side.” He tried to convince Himmler of his contacts, and the advisability of overthrowing Hitler and having Himmler take over.
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So that you were really a Himmler man and not a Hitler man? “No, one can’t say that exactly. I had to work with reality.

“My plan was to work with Himmler against Hitler as a means to an
end.” Did you or do you believe Himmler would be an improvement on Hitler? “I believe that under my influence, Himmler would have changed the foreign policy.” Did you have, therefore, such a great influence on Himmler? “At one time no, but from 1943 onward, my influence on Himmler in the area of foreign policy grew steadily.

“The only difficulty with Himmler was that he was of a sneaky nature. I never knew whether I would be alive or imprisoned the next day. But I gained new strength from my firm idea that Germany — that I must save Germany from chaos.

“That was the reason for my contacting the Americans in Stockholm in 1943, against strict orders from Hitler. Abraham Steven Hewitt was a Roosevelt adviser in Stockholm. Hewitt was married to a Vanderbilt.”
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What was the nature of your contact with Hewitt? “To open up boundaries to the West, and for the time being to have Himmler take over Germany, and for the creation of a western alliance against Russia.”

What were the results of your conference with Hewitt in November 1943? “I reported to Himmler about this, and he conferred with Kaltenbrunner, who influenced him to decide the opposite. From then on I had a difficult time.” Were you convinced that the western allies would link up with Germany against Russia? “I did. Hewitt had left the question open, said he must confer with Roosevelt.” Do you think the U.S.A. would conspire against her ally Russia, when they had been allied and were in the middle of a successful war? “There was that chance. It would bring a change in government in Germany and peace in the West.” What do you mean? “Germany would then have had to carry the main burden of a fight against Russia and have to pull back to its borders.” Yes, but you asked for an alliance against Russia? “Not an active alliance — just passive. Just stopping the fight in the West.”

So that Germany could defeat Russia? “Well, not defeat Russia necessarily, but with a change of political governing in Germany — a stop in the fighting.” With Himmler at the helm of the new German government — was he favorably disposed toward Germany withdrawing to its own boundaries and stopping the war with Russia too? “Himmler hated Russia but I had him convinced that Russia could not be defeated.” Was Himmler convinced? “At first Himmler hated me for it but then he began to think about it because of my documentary evidence.” It’s fantastic. “Yes, but I did it. In 1943 I began to use astrology with Himmler. I needed it as an instrument to get more influence with Himmler because
he believed in astrology. In my horoscope of Hitler I predicted the
Attentat
against Hitler in February 1944; as you know it actually took place on July 20, 1944. When the
Attentat
began, Himmler was very much convinced. Although Himmler himself played a small part in the
Attentat
, he was convinced. I also predicted Hitler would not survive April 1945. When Hitler did kill himself, Himmler was more than ever convinced.”

That was rather late in the game, was it not? “But not too late. I purposely told Himmler that he was supposed to be the successor to Hitler — to be a reformer, and that then he himself must step down.”

Himmler a reformer, the man who ordered 5 million Jews murdered, and who according to Bach-Zelewski wanted 30 million Slavs exterminated? “Himmler believed there would be chaos, and I strengthened in him that belief — I used him as a political tool for my own political purposes. I told him that he had to make good all the bad things — that he had to release all political prisoners. Jews were to be released.” What Jews? Hoettl said that in August 1944 Eichmann told him between 4 and 5 million of them had been killed to that time. “I didn’t know that. In October 1944 I had a conference with Jean-Marie Musy, former president of Switzerland, with Himmler present, and later Himmler and Musy had a conference alone.
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I learned at a later date that Himmler gave positive orders on the treatment of the Jews, showing that my ideas had taken root in him.”

Peculiar, because when Allied troops moved into Germany, concentration camps were burned and the inmates burned alive or shot. “I know. I was allowed to take 1,200 Jews into Switzerland. That began in January 1945. Every two weeks a train with 1,200 Jews could leave Germany for Switzerland. It only happened once because Kaltenbrunner went up to Hitler and had the whole thing stopped.”
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Was Kaltenbrunner then, in your opinion, worse than Himmler? “Yes. Especially during the last phase of the war. Kaltenbrunner had more influence with Hitler — in practice Kaltenbrunner was worse than Himmler.

“The same with the evacuation of camps — they should have been handed over to the Allies as they were. I talked with Musy about it. Himmler agreed with that. These instructions were subverted by Kaltenbrunner’s influence on Hitler.

“Musy sent a cablegram from Switzerland to Washington that these camps would be handed over intact when captured. Kaltenbrunner gave
orders to the contrary, with Hitler’s backing.” Kaltenbrunner says he had nothing to do with it. “I testified under oath about it in court.

“Further evidence that these facts are true is that Himmler, while Hitler was yet alive, called for capitulation to the western powers.” Is that rumor, or fact? “Those are facts. I delivered the offer from Himmler to Count Folke Bernadotte in Stockholm, and President Roosevelt declined the offer.”
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Would it have meant unconditional surrender? “Toward the western powers but not toward Russia. That was my influence.” But Russia was an Ally. “That was as much as I could influence Himmler. Himmler was such a coward he refused or was afraid to act because of Kaltenbrunner and Hitler. It was not my fault.

“You can see how far I had Himmler under my influence, when Himmler, of all people, declared he was ready to receive the Zionist representative from Sweden.” After the liquidation of the Jews? “I always thought the Jews were for the main part still alive.” Until when? “Until April 20, 1945.” By that time 5 million Jews were dead. “I had nothing to do with those things.” It’s a mystery story. “I thought the Jews were alive in concentration camps.”

But you knew they were in concentration camps. “I knew — and therefore I worked for the release of Jews from concentration camps.”

Sounds like something out of Grimms’ fairy tales. “I proved it to you.” Have you? “Yes, well I know I haven’t convinced you and I don’t care, but I’m telling you the truth.” Yes, I’m interested in it psychologically and as a story. Does it sound logical to you? “The only way I can explain it is that Himmler had two or three souls. I see that from the trials.” You saw only the good side of Himmler at that time? “No, not a good side only, but I saw the chance to use that side to have Himmler follow along the lines that I wanted. I never valued Himmler. Personally. I steadily felt Himmler’s unbalanced character. I myself was in danger for my life. More than once I thought of leaving Germany before 1944. But I was convinced I would have to remain in my post and do what I could.”

I don’t exactly see how you helped, with such atrocities being committed while you were so close to Himmler, and all the Nazis now say it was Himmler who ordered the butchery and atrocities. “I managed to do many humanitarian things.” I should like to hear about these things.

“For instance, against the tremendous resistance of Hitler and Kaltenbrunner, and at first Himmler too, I managed to save nine thousand Norwegians and Danes, whom I had released from concentration camps.”

It occurs to me that this act might have been a diplomatic thing to do to please Bernadotte when Germany was already losing the war. “No. If so I wouldn’t have had so much difficulty. And I had many cases released from concentration camps.”

Then you had great influence on the concentration camps? “I had no power over the concentration camps — it was another department. But I always found a reason to go there with demands — pretending it had something to do with the secret service.”