The Nuremberg Interviews (68 page)

When did you first become a member of the Nazi Party? “Nineteen twenty-five.” Why didn’t you graduate? “Because I talked in many gatherings to the public, in villages.” He was eighteen years old, and spoke publicly of questions pertaining to the SD and especially against a Hanover splinter party called Guelphs. There were two parts to the Guelphs, a monarchist and a republican. Ohlendorf was against both, because he was “against the destruction and dividing of Prussia.” Did you meet Hitler in 1925? “No.” Did you discuss anti-Semitism at age
eighteen? “They were general political questions. Anti-Semitism was among them.”

When you were eighteen, what were your views on the Jewish questions? “General views — mostly I was interested in doing away with class fights and social questions. I was formerly in the Bismarck Youth — all these parties were represented in a class of people. The NSDAP represented all of the people, regardless of classes.” And Jews? “They were members of other parties.” Then how do you figure the NSDAP represented all of the people? “I meant it represented all classes.”

When did you first have anti-Semitic feelings? “It goes back to the time with the German National People’s Party. It was anti-Semitic. The leader was Alfred Hugenberg, later minister of economics and agriculture in 1933.”
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Was Hugenberg’s the same type of anti-Semitism as Hitler’s? “I can’t say.” Did Hugenberg advocate annihilation of the Jews? “I doubt it. It wasn’t in Hitler’s program until 1942.” 1942? “By that time, Hitler gave the orders.” Did you follow the orders? “I didn’t know of the general order at that time. I found it out here. I’m convinced Hitler could not have found support of the people or even party members for that idea.”

“Later, after 1925, to go back, anti-Semitism was dropped, and just differences between nationalities were stressed.” When was anti-Semitism revived? “In 1942–43.” Are you not the man who testified concerning ninety thousand Jews killed? “Yes.” And there was no anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany before 1942–43? “In 1938 those persecutions were not anti-Semitism. There were a large number of Jews who held more favorable positions than they should have, according to their percentage of the population. Germans should have held those positions. This accounted for the 1938 action of Goebbels against the Jews.” Therefore, all Jews were dispossessed? “No. That was the November 1938 action of Goebbels against the Jews without the consent of Hitler. That was in reprisal for the murder of a Paris Nazi official by the Jew Herschel Grynszpan.” Do you believe that? “No. Goebbels was just looking for an excuse.”
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Did you know Goebbels personally? “Yes.” What sort of person was he? “I met him several times. He was clever, fanatic; having a clubfoot he might have suffered a minority inferiority complex, knowing that because of his physical appearance, he knew he never could reach leadership. He was unscrupulous in his propaganda. I always opposed Goebbels. I always tried to have people educated on a
broad basis, while Goebbels tried to supply them with knowledge for the moment. Goebbels considered humans as objects to be used for political purposes — for the moment.”

Did you do anything concretely against Goebbels? “My reports in the SD always referred to these facts.” Anything else about Goebbels? “I always had the feeling that Goebbels didn’t respect people as a whole. He was reckless in his contacts in his own office. He had no consideration for anyone. He was only concerned about governing. He took his way of governing from the Catholic hierarchy. As far as I know, Goebbels attended a Catholic school and was brought up in a cloister.” He seems to have turned against the Catholics. “Yes. But it did not hinder him from agreeing with authoritarian methods of governing. Goebbels kept faith only with himself.”

Education:
Ohlendorf graduated from gymnasium finally and then studied jurisprudence and economics at the Universities of Leipzig and Göttingen. He spent one year in Italy and studied fascism — in 1931. It was an academic exchange service. “I returned as a fanatic antifascist. Then I went to the courts in October 1933 and became an assistant in the Institute of World Economy at the University of Kiel.”

Were you still in the NSDAP? “Yes.” How could you be in a fascist party and be a fanatic antifascist? “It’s regrettable that you think they are the same. There is much difference. Fascism is a purely stately principle. Mussolini said in 1932, ‘The first thing is the state — and from the state are derived the rights and fate of the people. Humans come second.’ In National Socialism, it was the opposite. People and humans come first, and the state is secondary.”

Do you believe that? “I did. The bad thing was that Hitler hated the state so much, the government never functioned.” Do you think Hitler really liked people? “Oh, yes. The fault I see in Hitler is that he left his original base, his liking of the people, and sought the recognition of other nations by waging wars.” Do you think Hitler really liked people if he ordered millions of Jews destroyed? “In this was Hitler’s downfall.” But do you think Hitler liked people? “In 1933–1939, Hitler did tremendous things for the German people.” Do you think Hitler liked people in general, or only a concept known as the
Volk
? “I can’t answer it generally.” Be as specific as you care to be. “Well, he liked the German people.” Any other people? “I don’t know.” Do you think Hitler liked people when he ordered men, women, and children killed regardless of
race, color, or creed, in cold blood, not in battle against a town, or air raids, but in files near ditches, as you know the process better than I do? “I can’t answer the questions generally or specifically. I don’t know the psychological reasons which brought Hitler to do this.”

What do you think of it yourself? “One can’t generalize, looking at it from a German point of view. Just how many people were shot because of race or creed, I don’t know. Not many Germans were shot. Hitler believed in having it done for the good of the German people.” How could Hitler love people and shoot others? “Hitler did it for his people. Hitler didn’t believe it would end this way.” What do you think? “Hitler didn’t expect world war.” The whole world seemed to expect war. “I don’t think such questions can be answered simply.” What is your own idea? “I didn’t say he was a wonderful man — we started out with a discussion on the definition of fascism and Nazism.” As it worked out, was there any difference? “The chief of state in Germany adopted imperialistic beliefs. The extermination of the Jews goes back to the campaigns of Streicher, Goebbels, and Ley, who continually stressed the fact that Jews were enemies of the German people.” How did you figure a six-month-old Jewish infant must be killed — was it an enemy? “In the child we see the grown-up. I see the problem differently.” How? “I saw the Jewish question in 1933–34 in this way: Give the Jews a region where they would have a base and they could have minorities in other countries. Nothing particular happened — and then came the Goebbels action in 1938. Until 1938 there was no plan to exclude Jews from economic life. The economic experts never agreed with it.”

What was your testimony in court? “I described how an
Einsatzgruppe
received an order to liquidate Jews in Russia. This was not an anti-Semitic order; rather the Jews in Russia were said to be the main carrier of Bolshevism there. It was against my will that I was ordered to an
Einsatzgruppe
in Russia. There were five hundred men. Mostly Ordinary Police and armed SS. The region included Odessa and from Nikolaiev to Rostov and Crimea.” Did you know what your function was to be? “Yes. I knew the orders.
Einsatzkommandos
in the charge of colonels general executed the orders.” And you were a lieutenant general in charge of the
Einsatzgruppe?
“No. I was only a brigadier general at the time. It was 1941–42.” What did your
Einsatzgruppe
do? “The Jews were shot in a military manner in a cordon. There were fifteen-men firing squads. One bullet per Jew. In other words, one firing squad of fifteen
executed fifteen Jews at a time.” Did you supervise or witness? “I was there twice, for short periods.” Were the victims men, women, and children? “Yes.” Were the children shot? “Yes.” Was Uman in your territory? “No. Uman is in Ukraine.”
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How many Jews were killed by your group? “Ninety thousand reported. I figure actually only sixty to seventy thousand were shot.” Any records kept? “Not individual names.” Where did these Jews who were shot come from? “From Russian towns.”

Did you feel you were doing the right thing? “I myself didn’t have to do it.” Didn’t you direct it? “Yes. But orders were given to the
Einsatzkommando
leaders. All I had to do was see to it that it was done as humanely as possible.” Would you do it again? “I didn’t do anything.” Would you direct it again or obey such an order again? “I don’t think such a question is right. I think you can save that question. I suffered enough for years. Many people had to carry out orders they disapproved of. I rejected the order twice, but had to obey it the third time. The order came from Heydrich.” Was your appetite or sleep disturbed? “Of course. And I had to relieve people who had nervous breakdowns.” Many? “A few.” Any sadists among the executioners or on your staff? “No. These people were ordered to do it — they were not selected. They were ordered to do it, and so they did it.”

At this point, Ohlendorf is glumly reminiscent. He has shifted the burden of the mass murder onto Heydrich. He feels no remorse now except nominally. He looks like a burned-out ghoul, and his conscience, if it can be called such, is clean as a whistle and as empty. There is a dearth of affect, but nothing clinically remarkable. His attitude is “Why blame me? I didn’t do anything.”

“Those Jews stood up, were lined up, and were shot in true military fashion. I saw to it that no atrocities or brutalities occurred.” Was there an age limit? “There was no age limit.” He thought for a moment then said flatly, “Thank God, very few children were shot.” How many? “I don’t know. Hardly a thousand.” And ninety thousand reported exterminated, yet only a thousand children? “The treatment of the Germans by the Allies was at least as bad as the shooting of those Jews. The bombing of cities with men, women, and children burning with phosphorus — these things were done by the Allies.” Did you ever hear of Coventry? “They were done on both sides. I don’t want to bring up any excuses, just state the facts.”

The Nazi racial laws — what do you think of them? “They are correct.
The same as the Zionists think — to differentiate the German from the Jewish people. Absolutely correct.” And the Nuremberg Laws — what do you think of them? “I don’t remember the Nuremberg Laws.” At the time of the issuance of the Nuremberg Laws, did you have any objections? “No.”

What is your opinion of the Führer principle? “I oppose any Führer principle if it leads to a dictatorship. But the Führer principle could also allow someone with a good character to make himself leader, and that would be good.” In general, do you approve of the Führer principle, or do you not? “First, I must understand what is meant by the Führer principle. As handled in the Reich, I oppose it.”

What is your opinion regarding the principle of the
Volk
and of the idea of a master race? “The individual peoples are differentiated — it speaks against the national principle.” I don’t follow you. “The national principle is based on individual nationalities and abilities that these nationalities have.” For example? “I mean that each nationality has some abilities peculiar to it.”

Then why did you shoot ninety thousand Jews? “First, I didn’t shoot them. Firing squads did that. Secondly, I didn’t approve of it.”

Then why did you go through with it? “What else could I do?” If you disapproved of it, you could have protested and refused, it seems to me. “Where could I desert to? I was under oath to Hitler.” Under oath to commit mass murder? “Under oath.” For what? What did the oath state? “I could not have prevented it if I had killed myself. It would still have gone off according to schedule. These orders were given to the
Einsatzkommandos
in Berlin before they joined my group.” Does the commando leader have more power than the group leader — is that what you mean? “No. I too received orders from Berlin.”

And after this small episode of the
Einsatzkommando
in 1941–42, you rose to become a lieutenant general from the rank of brigadier general? “Yes.” So that your career was not damaged in any way by the emotional disturbance of the shooting of the Jews? “I told you I was upset. But it did not interfere with my efficiency and I went on in other fields.”

How long were you in Russia? “One year.” How long did it take to kill ninety thousand? “A year.” What was the maximum on one day? “Four or five thousand in one day.” Did Jews who were to be killed know it? “About ten minutes prior to the shooting.” Was there any disorder?
“No.” How were little children who could not stand up to be shot executed? “I don’t know. I didn’t see any.” No reports? “Only numbers.”

“I told you how I spent sleepless nights, how it upset my inner self.” But you went right on working for the Nazis and reached the rank of lieutenant general? Ohlendorf does not answer this, just sits tight-lipped and rather hostile. None of the questions were expressed in a hostile manner.

Did your wife know of this business of the
Einsatzgruppe?
“No.” Have you seen her since 1941–42? “I saw her, but never talked to her about those things. I didn’t think it was good conversation for a woman.”

But it’s all right to shoot women, not all right to talk to them about shootings? “In the first place, I didn’t shoot women. I merely supervised.”

In general, would you describe yourself as emotional, or cold? “Emotional.” Did you ever think of your own children in that position? “That was my first reaction.” But it didn’t stop you? “I couldn’t stop it.” You could not get sick or run away? “It would not matter. By my being there, I thought I could prevent inhuman acts.” What do you mean? “If you talk to people present at Uman and other such places, you will agree it’s best to have good people present to prevent bad executions.”