Conversations with Myself (33 page)

I enjoyed that conversation very much, but the result… is that I caught… pneumonia… I [had come] from Oakland and the temperature there was about 40 degrees, [and] flew non-stop from Oakland to Goose Bay… [where] the temperature was minus 15 degrees and you could see patches of snow… [From] the change of climate… and standing outside… in the cold (although I had an overcoat), by the time I went to the airport building I had already caught a cold. And the airport building was warm; there was a fire and the manager was a lady – Eskimo lady – but very advanced, you know, very highly cultured person, and who told me about one of her friends in the Canadian Embassy in South Africa. And then there was another Eskimo, a male, who was the assistant to the lady. He was also very impressive and he said, ‘Well, according to our custom I must welcome you with music.’ And he explained. He took an instrument. It was a guitar, but traditional – the woodwork, you know, showed it was traditional. And even the strings, you see, were not arranged in the same way as Western guitars are arranged. Then he explained; he said, ‘Well, I’m going to… This song with which I’m going to welcome you shows the night.’ And then he started the music. The tone is a dull one, and dragging the notes, but very sombre, and then later there was a change in the mood: becoming brighter, at first hardly noticeable. Then as he continued to play the song this cheerful note became dominant and then it became brighter and brighter and even his facial appearance was changing, you know, in tune with the music, until he reached, you know, the peak where the music was very
bright
, you know, and very
lively
, and that is how he welcomed us.

10. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT CONTRACTING PNEUMONIA

It was in Ireland that the cold got me. I had telephoned my family doctor Dr Nthato Motlana and Dr Gecelter, the chap… [who] helped in the operation on me. I had asked them to meet me in Dublin because I was not feeling well and I thought I should be seen by the people who had been treating me, you know? They saw me and they said… that there was nothing serious… I was [also] treated by the… prime minister’s doctor in Dublin, and then… addressed the joint session in the Parliament… Then we proceeded to London. I was recovering, but [as] I came out of the hotel, I was not aware that it was raining… and Winnie said to me, ‘Please let’s go back for your coat’… I didn’t want to be late for the British prime minister and… I said, ‘No, let’s go; we’ll be late if we go back.’ So when I got into the car a few drops caught me. And that made it worse…
Now
the pneumonia became very serious… As I was going out I met a group of youngsters, again in their teens, and they wanted autographs, so… I said, ‘Look I’m in a hurry. When I come back I’ll give it to you.’ And they said, ‘What time?’ I said, ‘Sometime in the afternoon.’ And… I forgot about the thing. When I was coming back I was also rushing for another appointment and I found them… still waiting. They were there in the morning about nine o’clock… [and at] four o’clock they were still waiting. So I say, ‘Well, gentlemen, I am sorry; I am rushing for an appointment.’ They say, ‘You promised; you gave us your word… your word of honour. We’ve have waited for you. Sign!’… When they said I had… pledged my honour I found it very difficult so I signed each one… and as I was signing, one of our chaps… said, ‘No, sign [only] one.’ But the children had waited there for the whole day… so I signed everything they gave me. [Someone] said to me, ‘No, they are going to sell the others, the other autographs.’ [
laughs
] That’s what they do. They hunt for autographs, you see, and then they go round and say, ‘Look, do you want the autograph of so and so? Here it is.’ Five… pounds, something like that. So they… must have made some money [
laughs
]…

I met [with] Mrs Thatcher… for… close to three hours, and naturally we discussed the question of sanctions and the general political situation in South Africa. She was interested in our relations with [Mangosuthu] Buthelezi… I made
no impression whatsoever
on the question of sanctions … [I said] to her that ‘We are an oppressed community and we need to do something… to put pressure on the regime to change its policies, and the only pressure of a formidable nature that we could exert is that of sanctions.’ I
couldn’t
make any impression. But she was charming and then I had a private lunch with her… She was very warm, you know; she was just the opposite of what I was told. Yes. And in fact I had then to ask to be excused because I had to attend another appointment… But… she herself was very generous about her time, and I was also tremendously impressed by her… I was impressed by her
strength
of character – really an iron lady…

I made this statement in Ireland that
in
South Africa we have decided to
speak
to the regime, to the enemy, and we regard this as consistent with the guidelines laid by the United Nations

… that member states must try and resolve their problems through peaceful means. And I urged the IRA [Irish Republican Army] and the British government to… resolve their problems peacefully, and I was then asked this question in the House of Commons, and I repeated what I said. [
chuckles
] But the chap who actually raised this question and criticised me for having made this suggestion… was jeered, booed by other MPs… He was booed. Some said, ‘
Nonsense
’, ‘
Rubbish
!’ [
chuckles
]

11. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT QUEEN BEATRIX AND QUEEN ELIZABETH II

I found the Dutch queen
very
interesting, very intelligent, well-informed, very confident, very accessible you know? There was no
rigid
protocol… I spent a very lovely time with her and I was just rather amazed by the amount of information that she had, and her keenness to discuss world problems… Very fine lady indeed.

[Queen Elizabeth] is one of the longest reigning monarchs and she is a fine lady. When you talk to her, she has a wonderful sense of humour… I watched her during the Commonwealth Conference in Harare in 1991, I think. Dr Mahathir, the prime minister of Malaysia was asked to propose a toast and… he said that, ‘Well, we used to be under the British Empire and Queen Elizabeth was there and we had a sultan who did not rule and we had a viceroy and advisors whose advice
had
to be accepted. We are members of a Commonwealth where the wealth is not common’… She was enjoying
all
these jokes, you know… Thereafter I had an opportunity of speaking to her… She was just sparkling and completely at ease. I thought she was a great lady, also very sharp. Very sharp. There may be a great deal of formality around her, but… as an individual [she] is a very simple person, very plain. I formed a good impression of her.

12. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT HIS TRIP TO FRANCE

[I] was received by [President] François Mitterrand in grand style… It’s a… misconception to think that socialists act like rascals, you know?… The arrangement was that I should approach from one side of the square and he would approach from another and we would meet in the middle of the square… He was there with Danielle [his wife] and I was there with Winnie and it was raining. It was very difficult weather conditions, but he had… his raincoat; I had [mine]… We met in the middle, shook hands; then we went to something like a tent and met there, exchanged views. I briefed him about the situation in the country and then we went for dinner…

We were given one of the executive jets from Paris to Geneva. The weather was very bad and… people were very anxious and I thought I should make a joke… I said, ‘If anything happens to my wife I’ll sue these chaps.’ People didn’t see the joke; they were very much worried because of the bumps and so on, you see. Because if something happened to the plane we will all die so I wouldn’t have an opportunity of instituting an action… They were so anxious that they didn’t catch the joke.

13. A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

MANDELA: Gee whiz; the Pope is also an outstanding person.
⁴
Humble,
very
humble. And I had an audience with him for about thirty minutes, if I’m not mistaken. Then the others, the rest of the delegation were called, and he gave us medals and prayed for us… I was impressed, you know, because when I was in jail I read a story… he had a holiday in the Alps… and… was then walking with one of his colleagues and he suddenly stopped and he says, ‘By the way, this is Nelson Mandela’s birthday today.’ There was that story… He just said, ‘Do you remember it’s Nelson Mandela’s birthday today?’

STENGEL: Oh, the Pope said that?

MANDELA: The Pope said that; he remembered that. And so he is a man who appears to take more than an ordinary superficial interest in our affairs in South Africa… He received us
very
well… I briefed him on the situation and he then
made
the statement that he fully supports the struggle against apartheid and he wished us well and strength…
Yes
, he’s a linguist, man!He’s a
linguist
. Did you know that he also plays the guitar, you know?… He’s quite a wonderful chap. [
laughs
] And then the most
widely
travelled pope. The
most
widely travelled pope… I met Prime Minister Andreotti… Prime Minister Andreotti and I also met the president…
⁵
How can I forget the name of the president? [
laughs
]

14. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

In another country – I won’t mention it by name because people can be very sensitive in Africa – in another country, we [got] the impression, both in prison and when I came out, that that is a democratic country, because there are elections, or so we thought… So I am well received there, treated as a head of state and so on, and at the
banquet
in the evening, I complimented the president for having made it possible for democracy to be introduced in this country and for the fact that he allows the people to determine who should form the government. But whilst I was talking, I saw some people… smiling sarcastically… [
laughs
] And so I asked one of our guys, ‘What is the position here?’ He says, ‘Well, you said very nice things but did you know how many people are in prison here, for no other reason except that they oppose the government, by
peaceful
methods? They want to challenge them in elections and because [the government] fears them, they have put them in jail.’ [
laughs
] Very difficult… [Now] when I go to a country, I make it a point… [first] to read some tract about that country, the
broad
features of their political system, you know, and the problems that they have.

15. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT MEETING FIDEL CASTRO

Castro is a very striking chap… We addressed a meeting together. What is the name of that town, man? A crowd like that in a small country? It was a fantastic crowd; I think there were about 300,000 people. Everyone
seated
on chairs. He spoke about three hours without a piece of paper, quoted figures, and he showed that America was bankrupt, you know? And
not
a single person left except to go to the toilet and come back… I was tremendously impressed by Castro and also by his humility – very humble chap, you know? When… I [was] driving with him through the city, he just sat down and folded his arms, and I was the person who was waving to the crowd …After speaking, we… went into the crowd; he was greeting everybody… I noticed that he will greet… a white person, then he goes to greet somebody who’s dark. I don’t know whether that was purely accidental or deliberate. [He was] very warm, talked to them for some time… I then realised that this enthusiasm and waving was not really for me as we were driving through the city; it was directed to Castro… Nobody bothered about me at all [
laughs
]… I was tremendously impressed by him.

16. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT VISITING KENYA, UGANDA AND MOZAMBIQUE

In both Uganda and Kenya I found the climate… very interesting… In Uganda the… soil is so rich that you can literally throw anything down – a seed – and it will grow. They are self-sufficient in… things like fruits… and a number of [other] agricultural products… [In] Kenya I found that they could plant mealies [maize] throughout the year… They had three, what-you-call, three stages of mealies growing: one ripe, the other just about to be ripe… the other one still just above the ground… which indicated how good their climate is from the point of view of agriculture… In South Africa… except [for] those farms, you see, where there is… sufficient irrigation, mealies is planted once a year. But we were
well
received in all these countries… I met [President] Chissano in Mozambique, in Maputo. It was clear that the war had damaged the economy of the country. They were going through a very hard time, but I thought Chissano was handling the problems very well. And I also met Mrs Graça Machel, the wife of the late president of Mozambique, and I was very happy. I was meeting her for the first time. A very impressive woman and striking personality. I spent about three days in Maputo. The day we were leaving there was a bomb scare which came from South Africa… There was [supposed to be] a bomb [on] that plane… We had to be taken out of the plane, they had to search [it] and our luggage had to be kept back. They had to go through it to search it properly and to send it the following day… When we came back there was tight security at the airport because these alarmists had also made a threat that they would deal with me when I come back. But nothing happened.

17. FROM A NOTEBOOK

Discussion with President George W Bush

White House 12 November 2001.

How much time have I got?

1.

Compliments on manner in which he has handled important issues

Meeting various Heads of States Especially Presidents Mbeki and Obasanjo