Colored Lights: Forty Years of Words and Music, Show Biz, Collaboration, and All That Jazz (8 page)
Authors: Greg Lawrence,John Kander,Fred Ebb
BOOK: Colored Lights: Forty Years of Words and Music, Show Biz, Collaboration, and All That Jazz
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KANDER: He was rich when all these people were starving in the thirties.
EBB: He was playing golf with Whitney and his wealthy friends.
Harold Prince on
Flora
:
Flora
:
I always wanted to direct
Flora
,
the Red Menace
. I understood the milieu. I understood the characters. My wife’s family had been victims of the blacklist, and I knew full well how idealistic and naive and innocent so many of the people who were pilloried really were, and I wanted the show to be about that and so did the original author of the novel. The problem was George Abbott didn’t know anything about that. The guys started to write the score and Abbott heard it, and Abbott said, “It’s brilliant. I want to direct that.” And because of my relationship with him—I mean, without him I would not have gotten a strong foothold on a life in the theater—so, obviously, if he wanted to do it, it was his call. At that point in time, I didn’t have the confidence, having not really done very much up until then, to know that I could have pulled it off, If I had had that confidence, I might have talked him out of it. Say I had done
Cabaret
first, and we were then working on this, I would have said, “Look, Mr. Abbott, you don’t know these people.” But I hadn’t done that. And so of course he directed it, and I stayed on as the producer. But I always wish I had done it.
Flora
,
the Red Menace
. I understood the milieu. I understood the characters. My wife’s family had been victims of the blacklist, and I knew full well how idealistic and naive and innocent so many of the people who were pilloried really were, and I wanted the show to be about that and so did the original author of the novel. The problem was George Abbott didn’t know anything about that. The guys started to write the score and Abbott heard it, and Abbott said, “It’s brilliant. I want to direct that.” And because of my relationship with him—I mean, without him I would not have gotten a strong foothold on a life in the theater—so, obviously, if he wanted to do it, it was his call. At that point in time, I didn’t have the confidence, having not really done very much up until then, to know that I could have pulled it off, If I had had that confidence, I might have talked him out of it. Say I had done
Cabaret
first, and we were then working on this, I would have said, “Look, Mr. Abbott, you don’t know these people.” But I hadn’t done that. And so of course he directed it, and I stayed on as the producer. But I always wish I had done it.
KANDER: Mr. Abbott was a terrific man, and I learned more about working in the theater from him than any other single source. At our first preview out of town, we were all standing in the back, and Mr. Abbott came in and looked at us rather strangely. We all recoiled at that moment, and he said, “All right, who’s gonna sit with me? Can’t learn about a show standing back there. Somebody’s got to sit with me.” I was closest and he grabbed my wrist. Then we sat down in the middle of the theater to experience what the audience reaction truly was. I’ve always remembered that. You can’t stand removed from the audience and really know what they’re feeling.
Mr. Abbott had a ritual whenever one of his shows opened. If the show was a hit, he would go to the party, drink a glass of wine, dance with his favorite chorus girl, and say, “Well, it worked out this time.” If the show was a flop, he would have his glass of wine, dance with his favorite chorus girl, and say, “Well, this time it didn’t work out.” That was it. The ritual never changed. It’s helped me a lot during flops to know they are part of what we do. Don’t get too deceived by success, but don’t get too deceived by a flop either.
EBB: We always deferred to Mr. Abbott. He removed the song “The Kid Herself” just because he thought it should go, and there was no forum or discussion about that. It was Liza’s opening song, and he took it out and replaced it with another song that we had slated later, “All I Need Is One Good Break.” It was not something I would have done because I was fond of “The Kid Herself” and I thought the number worked. I also wanted to start the show with Flora’s high school graduation. But it was George Abbott, so naturally we did it his way.
KANDER: We had meetings every morning at the Ritz-Carlton Hotel in Boston—I remember you had to wear a tie to get into the hotel—and Hal would be there along with Mr. Abbott. You and I, who were staying someplace less impressive, put on ties and came to meetings every day. At one meeting, you had
that idea for starting the show that you obviously believed in strongly, and I don’t think any of us supported it. But you were very expressive, and finally Mr. Abbott said, “Well, let’s try it. That’s what we’re here for.” When the number was put in, the moment didn’t really work, and Mr. Abbott said to you, “Look, we all decided to do this, so if it doesn’t work, it’s not your fault.”
that idea for starting the show that you obviously believed in strongly, and I don’t think any of us supported it. But you were very expressive, and finally Mr. Abbott said, “Well, let’s try it. That’s what we’re here for.” When the number was put in, the moment didn’t really work, and Mr. Abbott said to you, “Look, we all decided to do this, so if it doesn’t work, it’s not your fault.”
EBB: I was crestfallen.
KANDER: But he was considerate enough to protect your feelings. He said that to you before the show, didn’t he?
EBB: I was grateful for that. It was kind of him not to say anything like, “Oh God, look at the time you’ve cost us.”
KANDER: He asked us to write a new song for the same moment called “Among the People.” We wrote it very fast in the theater while he was waiting for us downstairs. Then we played it, and he stopped the rehearsal and had us play it for the company. Afterwards, he said, “Isn’t it amazing that these boys did this so fast!” He didn’t have to offer that kind of praise, and I suspect another director like Jerry Robbins or Bob Fosse would not have done that.
EBB: I think he sensed our terror.
KANDER: Mr. Abbott was always a gentleman. I never saw him hurt anybody’s feelings, except on purpose. If he couldn’t get what he wanted after the third time, he would say something sharp, but it was never in a foot-stamping fury. Usually if he raised his voice, he would make it up with the person. He was the least self-indulgent director I’ve ever seen. I think that came out of his own sense of security, not that everything he did was going to be a hit.
EBB: It was terrifying to have our first Broadway show and so much riding on it—both our careers. I had already had an Off Broadway show that didn’t work. I worried that maybe nobody would want to hire me again, and you had done
A Family Affair,
which didn’t work. But I doubt that you share this view.
A Family Affair,
which didn’t work. But I doubt that you share this view.
KANDER: I don’t think I thought in those terms. I just didn’t want to do bad stuff. I had the same insecurities that everybody has, but I didn’t think all that much about what would become of my life if we failed. Maybe I did and I’ve just forgotten.
EBB: The day after
Flora
failed, Mr. Abbott said something to us on the way out of the office. We literally had our hands on the doorknob, and he said, “Fellas.” We both turned around, and he said, “You will work with me again, won’t you?” Imagine what that meant coming from George Abbott.
Flora
failed, Mr. Abbott said something to us on the way out of the office. We literally had our hands on the doorknob, and he said, “Fellas.” We both turned around, and he said, “You will work with me again, won’t you?” Imagine what that meant coming from George Abbott.
KANDER: Our work routine was established then and hasn’t changed to this day. I come to your house because you like staying home and I like going out, so it’s an ideal arrangement. We usually work in the mornings. When I go home, I may think about the work, but it doesn’t hang over me. You will worry over a piece and that may be because you stay in the same environment.
EBB: Over the years we’ve written in a number of ways. But usually we go into a room together with an idea and then start improvising.
KANDER: You have your large grand piano and a little piano. I’ve always much preferred working in a small room at the little piano.
EBB: It gives us propinquity. I’m usually at the desk next to the piano.
KANDER: We get up and walk around the room—
EBB: And we improvise.
KANDER: If we are working on a show, we talk about the moment that we’re going to musicalize. Then maybe you will have a lyrical phrase and maybe I’ll have a rhythmic idea. From then on, we improvise together. You never hand me a lyric and say, “Set this,” and I never hand you a finished melodic chart and say, “Write a lyric to this.” I would say that 90 percent of all the songs that we have written together we’ve written in the same
room at the same time. Unlike most composers, we usually write the first song in a show first. It’s not necessarily the most important song, but the opening of a show tells us something about what we’re going to do with the score. It gives us a sense of the style in which we will be working. The idea very often comes from you, and it might be the first line or a title.
room at the same time. Unlike most composers, we usually write the first song in a show first. It’s not necessarily the most important song, but the opening of a show tells us something about what we’re going to do with the score. It gives us a sense of the style in which we will be working. The idea very often comes from you, and it might be the first line or a title.
In those early days, working on
Flora
and
Cabaret,
we would basically improvise the scene before we would sit down to write, just to figure out the real emotions of the characters. Whenever we are writing for one or more characters in a show, we have to figure out what they are feeling, and we will sometimes even improvise in words to discover what they are really saying. I think we’ve always tried to be honest in our work, and if there is anything good about us, I hope it may be that we’re not fake. To this day I don’t think we write grandiose pieces to express something trite or frivolous, and we try not to be complicated just for the sake of being complicated. We have never really spoken about it, and I don’t know if you will agree with this, but I like us most when we’re most simple and direct.
Flora
and
Cabaret,
we would basically improvise the scene before we would sit down to write, just to figure out the real emotions of the characters. Whenever we are writing for one or more characters in a show, we have to figure out what they are feeling, and we will sometimes even improvise in words to discover what they are really saying. I think we’ve always tried to be honest in our work, and if there is anything good about us, I hope it may be that we’re not fake. To this day I don’t think we write grandiose pieces to express something trite or frivolous, and we try not to be complicated just for the sake of being complicated. We have never really spoken about it, and I don’t know if you will agree with this, but I like us most when we’re most simple and direct.
EBB: I’ve never thought about it, but I suppose I feel that way too. It’s the only way I know how to work. Just go right to it. I hope that our work is a little more than frivolous even when we set out to be frivolous. I like us when we can be funny and simple and touching.
KANDER: I suspect our favorite songs of those that we have written are probably quite different.
EBB: For performance, I think “And the World Goes ’Round” from the movie
New York
,
New York
is a very satisfactory song. In regard to special material, I think “Ring Them Bells” is very satisfactory.
New York
,
New York
is a very satisfactory song. In regard to special material, I think “Ring Them Bells” is very satisfactory.
KANDER: I agree with that one.
EBB: For a ballad, “Maybe This Time,” which was used in the movie of
Cabaret
and then went into the show. You know I like
belt songs, those where you just throw your head back and sing your ass off. You like more balladic pieces like “A Quiet Thing” in
Flora
and “My Own Space” from
The Act
. I like the ballads but they would never be my favorites.
Cabaret
and then went into the show. You know I like
belt songs, those where you just throw your head back and sing your ass off. You like more balladic pieces like “A Quiet Thing” in
Flora
and “My Own Space” from
The Act
. I like the ballads but they would never be my favorites.
KANDER: The big belt songs that we have written, some of which have done well and which you are fondest of, I sometimes refer to as screamers. Somebody’s out there screaming, “God-dammit, world!”
EBB: Those get to me. I like to hear other people sing them, and when I was equipped to sing them, I liked singing them myself.
KANDER: Those songs are generally about
Life has kicked the shit out of me, but I’m going to live it.
We’ve written quite a few that express that theme and that may be what some people want to think of as a Kander and Ebb song, though there are certainly other songwriters who write them also.
Life has kicked the shit out of me, but I’m going to live it.
We’ve written quite a few that express that theme and that may be what some people want to think of as a Kander and Ebb song, though there are certainly other songwriters who write them also.
Liza Minnelli on drawing inspiration from Kander and Ebb’s songs:
There are times when I hang on to their songs emotionally. When I was coming off the medicine they put me on for my hip replacements, I was in such pain, but I knew I didn’t want to take the medication. I knew that I would react differently to it than most people and become addicted. So I’m trying to get off this medicine and thinking,
Oh, for Christ’s sake, it hurts, please take the pain away.
I kept going back to the lyrics of the first song of theirs I sang on the stage, “Unafraid,” from
Flora, the Red Menace:
“Clouds may gather and swarm, yet this promise is made—we will weather this storm uniformly unafraid.” Those words were inspiriting, and I use their songs in my life that way.
Oh, for Christ’s sake, it hurts, please take the pain away.
I kept going back to the lyrics of the first song of theirs I sang on the stage, “Unafraid,” from
Flora, the Red Menace:
“Clouds may gather and swarm, yet this promise is made—we will weather this storm uniformly unafraid.” Those words were inspiriting, and I use their songs in my life that way.
EBB: I do believe in that kind of message, not necessarily thematically in everything that we write, but it’s there in my own mind. If I were writing a piece not connected to any particular show, I would generate that kind of thought. It’s like Tony Newley’s “Nothing Can Stop Me Now.” That is the kind of song that most appeals to me. I don’t even know if it’s a good song, but I like what it says. Of course, I would be nowhere without your music to support that kind of lyric because all that energy you find when you sing a number like “And the World Goes ’Round” comes from the music. The words are one thing, but the music makes the words happen. I don’t think you give yourself enough credit. You should but I can’t talk you into it. I often wonder how you do what you do. I see you go to the piano and I listen to you play, but how do you go “dum dum da da dum” and make the song?
KANDER: Taking a spin off that as far as what makes the music happen, speaking strictly from a musical standpoint, I think harmony or harmonization is what helps melodic material to find itself. This is difficult to explain to someone who is not a musician, but if you just play a melody, unaccompanied and unharmonized, the ear will only hear some very bare-bones sounds. Maybe there will be implications of harmony, but once you harmonize it, the melody does something else. Jerome Kern’s song “All the Things You Are” is a perfect example because the melody is really simple and wonderful while harmonically it is so adventurous. It takes you to so many interesting places that it’s always commenting on itself. The song doesn’t work without the harmony, or not nearly as well. Anybody whose fingers have twisted playing “All the Things You Are” will know what I mean.
On a different plane, it’s the same way with Wagner. Often melodically what he’s doing is very simple, while harmonically underneath it, he is telling us extraordinary things that we would not hear without it. When I work melodically, I’m also working
harmonically at the same time. In other words, it’s never a melody by itself that later I will harmonize. When something comes out melodically, all of the harmonic implications are there, at least in my head or my fingers. That’s just my way of thinking about it.
harmonically at the same time. In other words, it’s never a melody by itself that later I will harmonize. When something comes out melodically, all of the harmonic implications are there, at least in my head or my fingers. That’s just my way of thinking about it.
EBB: All of that is totally mysterious to me. As you know, I don’t read music or play the piano.
KANDER: It depends on what you hear in your head. I hear music all the time. I mean,
all the time.
Harmonization of a melody is a process that is happening continuously while I’m working, and if what I play at the piano sounds like bare bones to you, that is not what I’m hearing in my head.
all the time.
Harmonization of a melody is a process that is happening continuously while I’m working, and if what I play at the piano sounds like bare bones to you, that is not what I’m hearing in my head.
EBB: I only hear rhythm.
KANDER: You’re very good with rhythm. You often throw me into a rhythmic area that would not have occurred to me.
EBB: I love rhythm, whether it’s in television commercials or in the theater or on a train, anytime and anywhere. Wherever there is rhythm, I’m happy.
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